Behind a Smile with Dr. Shauntel Ambrose
I host a podcast that shares the secrets behind some of the most resilient healthcare businesses worldwide, innovative products, savvy strategies and daily inspiration to reach your ultimate in your healthcare career. I interview the movers and shakers of healthcare who courageously push boundaries. Whether you a start-up, or needing a push to keep going or a family business or looking for mentorship without the business know-how. This is an all-inclusive, keeping it real, not for the faint-hearted, haters or the nay-sayers live your best life as a member of a global community in healthcare podcast!
Behind a Smile with Dr. Shauntel Ambrose
Insights from Leading Paediatric Surgeon Dr. Amanda Ngobese
Join us as we welcome Dr. Amanda Ngobese, a trailblazing pediatric surgeon known shares her inspiring journey, detailing her passion for burns management, minimal access surgery, and urology. Raised in Durban, Kwa-Zulu Natal Dr. Ngobese offers a heartfelt reflection on the vital role of family support in her path to success.
Discover the emotional and personal dynamics of paediatric care through her experiences. She opens up about the profound impact of parenthood on her professional practice, highlighting the importance of empathy and understanding when treating young patients. Gain insights into the intricate art of managing family expectations to improve healthcare outcomes. Listeners will also learn about the motivations behind pursuing minimal access surgery and the valuable lessons imparted by influential mentors in this demanding field.
As a mother and a surgeon, Dr. Ngobese shares her personal stories of navigating the challenges of balancing career and motherhood. This episode celebrates the resilience of healthcare workers across board, emphasizing the necessity of a robust community support system. Dr. Ngobese's journey is a testament to the power of determination and the importance of mentorship, teamwork, and adaptability in achieving career success. Tune in to be inspired by her story and explore strategies for building a personal brand and diversifying a career in healthcare.
Hello and welcome to Behind a Smile. I am Dr Chantal Ambrose and I am a dentist. I host a healthcare business podcast where I interview healthcare practitioners around the world, sharing tips on how to improve your healthcare practice, innovate and grow, while living your best life. We share products and information from healthcare partners that can help you in your practice journey, be it a startup, a family-based business or a multidisciplinary healthcare team. Most of the information provided here is based on personal experience and opinions. Of the information provided here is based on personal experience and opinions, so please supplement what you learn here with approved research, studies and professional advice.
Speaker 1:Thank you to everyone who has subscribed and I invite you to join our community. If you haven't, we would love to hear from you. If you would like to be on the show, drop me a mail at behindasmile2 at gmailcom. Let's make it happen together. Hi everyone. So chantelle from behind a smile. So she is a superpower. This is dr amanda ingubese and she is a specialist pediatric surgeon. Welcome to our studio. We are so, so excited to have you here, yara, and thank you for making the time today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me and for solarizing my tiredness. I had a bit of a crazy day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, listen. I want to tell our audience a little bit about you, because it is kind of crazy that you could have this amount of I don't know accolades behind you Working at Grace Hospital, but an associate at KZN Specialized Pediatric Surgical Service. Now you've completed your fellowship training. You've done this through College of Medicine. You later did your pediatric surgery at University of Queensland Natal. You've done burns management, minimal access surgery. You have a special interest in minimal access surgery and we're going to be talking a little bit about that, as well as urology. You have a passion for teaching as an honorary lecturer at the UKZN Medical School. And just when you thought, just when you thought that a woman is multitasking at a high level, you have not even understood that this is a woman that has a nine-year-old girl and a sassy one like that, and she is a wife so welcome. I'm actually overwhelmed to even to hear as much as you're doing. I feel like I'm not even doing enough, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for such a lovely welcome. And you know it's you, you get you. It just becomes your life, you run with it and you don't realize. You know, when you're saying all these things, I'm just thinking, okay okay, can you tell us a little bit about your journey?
Speaker 1:So?
Speaker 2:I actually I'm from a very small town. I grew up in Durban, in Queensborough, and predominantly I ran, my grandma and my great aunt, my mom, worked and was staying at work or staying away for work, and I grew up around lots of strong, powerful women actually and I think from a very young age I've always known that whatever it is I wanted to do, I wanted to study hard and I wanted to work, Predominantly because I actually thought to myself, cause my mom was very like, um, strict Christian and very like you know, you can't go here, you can't do that. And my sister and I used to sit down and talk and be like we have to study to get out of here so we can do whatever we want. And you know, when you're a child and you have this sort of weird inspiration and aspirations, as I grew up I actually realized that, you know, my upbringing actually is a large reason of why I work hard, why I push myself, is that I was raised around very strong women that always made you feel like you know you can do anything. We grew up as girls so we'd like mow the lawn and do all the sort of boy things, so I grew up not having anything that I can't do, and I hated having things that I couldn't do. So, yeah, and I think I had a very good support structure in terms of family, my extended family, my cousins. It was really nice.
Speaker 2:And I'm not sure where the idea of doing medicine started, but I remember I was in grade two and my great-grandfather we're very close bought me this briefcase because, I mean, back in the days, doctors get this briefcase and he was like this is your briefcase for when you become a doctor. I can't remember in my head whether I knew I wanted to become a doctor from then or before then, but I've always known. From that age I was like I'm going to be a doctor, so I can carry this briefcase to work and yeah and yeah, the rest is history. You just push yourself and you work and, to be honest, it's you need your family, you need a lot of support to be actually to to make it basically through anything. So, yeah, a lot of it's a lot of support from work. And then when you started through university, having very good people around you, a good crowd of friends Throughout my high school and university, I had one very good friend, Pumzi Lingop.
Speaker 2:She's my best friend and she carried me through that. And I think when you're young, because the center of your world is your friends, keeping a good crowd of friends and I cannot even take responsibility for that she just chose me and she was a very good influence on me and that carried me out through university. Obviously, at university there's a lot of partying and fun, but if you keep a good support structure, you're able to actually get through it and get through what you're actually supposed to do there. So, yeah, I think it hasn't been easy, but yeah, it was just lots of support and just being lucky. To be honest, we have good people around me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, listen, I think your journey is lovely. Yeah, I hear you because I have a few of those symbols in my life as well that you know, that just remind you of. It's almost like your journey chooses you somehow and you end up going this route and then you see it through and then you just get these little symbols along the way that make sense to you, but only to you. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But anyway now I want to know what. What was pediatric surgery? Because you know now you finished medicine. What made you do pediatric surgery?
Speaker 2:so when I was an intern I actually thought I wanted to be a pediatrician because I loved working with kids. And then I did a rotation and I thought, sheesh, this is too hectic, you know, emotionally, and you know I thought, oh, these kids are so sick and often when like a baby doesn't do well, I'd be like in tears, crying, and I was like, no, I can't do this. And then I had a rotation in surgery, in general surgery, and I was like I love this. You know, I actually maybe want to be a surgeon and I enjoyed it thoroughly.
Speaker 2:I did a more time there and I think the thing that put me off general surgery was mostly, like you know, the trauma base. I wasn't very fond of it because of you know how the circumstances around you know how the people get injured. And then I remember I actually never had a fixed rotation pediatric surgery, but I think I was replacing a trainee that wasn't there for that brief period of time. So I rotated there for a short period of time and I met Mr Kimenson. He's I love so very much. I think everybody that's ever met him loves him and I don't think I've ever met a more humble, more sincere, more just a person that's just.
Speaker 2:I think, seeing how he is, how he was with his job, how he loved it, how he associates with people and how much he taught that just I was like I want to be part of the team, and in that team it was Dr Mangre and a whole lot of other people andI thought I just loved the way it was just like a family and I love the environment and I love how conducive it was to learning, to working, and I was like, maybe I like this. And he also used to whisper in my ear every time, every now and then, because I would come in to see, oh, what are they doing when I'm in there doing my cases? And he was like, oh, come, come, have a look at this. And I think he stole me, basically because I was at general surgery range for three years and then I went into pediatric surgery. So, yeah, it was just influence of surgeons.
Speaker 1:It's almost like you you found pediatric surgery while you, while you were thinking of another path.
Speaker 2:Yes, all right, I think it found me. Yeah, because I like to be honest. I think maybe if I'd been exposed to it that's another point is because as a undergraduate, or like while you train, you're not exposed very much to the subspecialties or to the, you know, the super specialties, so I wasn't exposed enough to fall in love with this. It only happened when I was, you know, in training for something else that I got exposed and I fell in love and then, yeah, then I, with one year to go, stopped and yeah, carried on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there must be many ups and downs. And how do you maneuver yourself with all of this? Because I'm sure you're not giving good news all the time. So, now, how do you go about these conversations? And they can be hard conversations because you're managing not only um children, you're managing parents and it's it's such an emotional thing. So how do you go about doing all of that?
Speaker 2:I think a lot of the time, honestly, it's just, firstly, to try and put yourself in that person's shoes you know how would I feel if my child had this and this and that. What questions would I have? And then to actually give them the opportunity to voice what concerns they have, what questions they have, and try to just address those as best as you can. And also, you know patients are different, their backgrounds are different. To try, and also, you know patients are different, their backgrounds are different. So to try and see how you can sort of, you know, identify with what they're going through and be able to, you know, answer whatever questions they have, comfort them if there's any concerns. And then the other thing I learned earlier on is to just, you know, get a sort of feel of what are the expectations, because a lot of the times I tend to find that we know we don't the the sort of dissatisfaction comes from unmet expectations. So if you know what the expectations are and sort of manage those expectations, we're able to navigate most things. You know, and, to be honest, for me it helped. Being a mom and being around kids has helped a lot because, on top of the frustration of you, you've got a sick baby, you're in hospital, you've got other kids at home, you've got other things to sort of worry about. So to try and just, you know, remember at the end of the day there's many sort of things at work. There's the mother, the family structure, the family dynamics. Despite this, or in spite of this child that is sick, it's a whole family that's affected, and to try and see how you can make it a bit easier for them. And so I think most patients just want an explanation, just to understand. So even if, like you know, if a mom is a dog, I still approach them the same, I'll still sit down with my pen and I draw. My drawing is not very good, but at the times I find that whatever you're discussing or explaining, do a drawing, whether it's a sister, whether it's because, for me as well, my daughter has been sick and had like an orthopedic problem, and we're chatting and I'm still thinking I have no idea what you're talking about. You know, I'm a doctor but I'm not an orthopedic surgeon, so I don't know what you're talking about. So it's nice to just be treat that person as just a mom, irrespective of who and where they're coming from.
Speaker 2:They are just that, just a parent that just wants help for their child and wants to be reassured that everything will go well. And yeah, you do have some times where you don't have such great news and those times are very difficult. And if you, I mean I've cried, I've cried with the parents and I mean there's no shame in feeling and actually showing emotion, it happens. So, just so that you know you, it's difficult with kids, honestly, because it's they've got their lives ahead of them and it's a loss for a baby. It's not that it's easy to lose someone in general, but I think it stings just a little bit more with children and we've we've had not so good outcomes, we've had tears and we've comforted each other, the parents have comforted us and vice versa. So, yeah, you end up being like a family honestly yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Um, I think I I agree with you. You know it's hard, but it's also also that thing that gives you a little bit more experience when handling um difficult situations for peds, because I've been doing peds for dental for 20 years now, and I think only since I've had my kids do I truly understand how vulnerable you have to be, and you're so right when you are a practitioner and when you show up at somebody else's office and it's all out of your hands, even though you know that much it takes.
Speaker 1:It's a really unusual place for a practitioner or a specialist or whatever it is that they are um, to have to be that vulnerable and to have to give trust to somebody else completely and utterly so. To treat them them as a mom is probably the best advice that I've heard for such a long time. It really does help. So, yeah, shucks, I remember the days when I didn't have children. Do you remember those days, amanda? I miss those days sometimes.
Speaker 2:You know you come home and you're so sad, you're like peace. And then you know you come home and you're so sad, you're like peace, and then then it's like, let's work again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I never knew for a moment that it would add so much of color in my career I know that that would be the, the real, you know 360, where you can truly see the dynamic of everything that is happening. That's so true. Yeah, it's a real blessing.
Speaker 2:And it actually makes you know. Sometimes you'll be chatting with, like, the mom in the waiting area and they're like a little bit nervous and you like you start chatting about your child oh no, my child also had this, or my child had that. It sort of actually calms them to understand that you know you've been through something similar as well and you know it went okay.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean these little monsters are really great in our lives in every aspect, because I mean when they're around sometimes it's much, but when they're there it's like it's too quiet, like where are they and you miss them so much yeah, you know, um, I think that when you find yourself, and when you find this, this career of yours, developing, you tend to get to a point on your journey where you're pushed forward, and I can see that your special interest ended up being in minimal access surgery. Now listen, I cannot imagine you're already doing such a difficult job, right? I don't know what happens when you wake up one day and you know what I'm going to do. I'm going to make this job. I'm going to learn to do minimal access surgery in already something that is so difficult to do. Tell us about how did that happen? I must say.
Speaker 2:I have to say it's my boss, dr Van Gray. He is doing his PhD in developing minimal access teaching in sort of low, middle and come out countries. So I think when I I mean when I came back because I trained in Durban, and when I finished my training and I came back to Grace, I mean everything it was just minimal access. This must be so hard. And I remember my very first big case that I did. I was moaning and groaning and saying, oh, I can't do this, it's so hard. And he was like no, you can't do this. You know, just, put your mind to it, focus, take a break, take a breather if you have to, and you know just, and the rest is history, it's just.
Speaker 2:I think it's just having a great teacher and someone to push you that makes you realize that you know what. I can't do this. And I remember when I started it I said told them, I said, oh, it's gonna take me like a whole year to do. And then two months later it's like do you realize how much you've grown? And you said you would take a year and look at where you are now. And I think that's actually why I love teaching as well, because I see how much patience and how much time was put into me and how much that helped me and I want to do that for somebody else.
Speaker 1:And I keep on thinking that we just don't have enough mentorship throughout our lives. And then when you do meet that mentor that just sort of gels with you but guides you on your way, it's almost like that light you know that you consistently have with you, shining in your place in that part of the career where you're at, and your career evolves into different aspects throughout your entire life.
Speaker 1:So, it's wonderful to have that person on board with you. It's almost like they walk that journey with you, knowing what that journey was about, allowing you to create your own path. So very special. And I know that when I started dentistry, minimal access was not something that we are completely unaware of. I just remember we working on the phantom head. Amanda, it was so easy doing all of these things in the phantom head because you could take the head off, you could take the head on. There's no bleeding. It was wonderful. It was the most freeing thing that you could do in life was to do all of the surgery. All of the. Anything that you could do on that phantom head was fantastic.
Speaker 1:Then you get your first patient and the saliva and the pain and they actually move and they move. They have a response to the suction, to the way you are positioning everything and it's limited. And then what humbles you one step further is anyone that works with children, because now, all of a sudden, your airway is minute and you know if they're sick. Now it's really hard to actually secure a good airway when you're doing any surgery and you know if they're sick now it's really hard to actually secure a good airway when you're doing any surgery and you know it gets worse. I can only imagine. I can only imagine what that would be like, where you're at. You know what are those challenges, what are the triumphs. When you're in those kind of sort of surgeries where you're thinking to yourself goodness, you know, how do we even gain access to, even get to what we need to do?
Speaker 2:I think you know more and more. When I did pediatric surgery, I realized how important it is to have a good relationship with the people that you work with and know what each other's expectations are and you just then it just flows it. I think it starts with having a very good anesthetic team that understands your expectations, that understands this is what you're trying to do, and you've got a good with, like, nursing team and you all just like I think I think if you see what I post when I'm in work, I always say ot5, because it's like theater 5 team. We are, we just we just gel and everyone works so beautifully together. We are so, so, so blessed to have a very great uh group of anesthetists chantelle, nocici, carrie, um, you know, we work so well together and it's, it's almost, you know, second nature.
Speaker 2:When you come in, everyone is there. When they're able to sleep, everyone's working together to make sure that the lines and all those things are up. And then when the procedure is happening, especially when we do big cases, I'm never actually alone. We work as a team so that we tag a bit. You know like I'll do a little bit, then Juxiwengu will be doing something, sandelo will be doing something. So the whole team is there and it's nice, it's a nice reassurance and it's also nice to know that you know you've got a lot of sort of brains also cooking there, so that you know something that you're unsure about or you may have a better idea. So let's do this better.
Speaker 2:It actually it works together. It works Like it's basically a great team. You need a great team and also to know when how far to go. You know, like if you must know. Also, you know this is what we're going to do today and you know, okay, maybe we're not able to do A, b and C, we'll do here and stop, and that's what's safe to do, et cetera. It's just, you know. I think it boils down to having a good working team. And yeah, I think most times we have a beautiful day in theatre. We always, always, always overrun and we work until late and we are happy and laughing and yeah, and our theatre is actually very warm, so other people come and visit for the warmth, so it's always like people in an art. So it's really it's a nice environment. I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, listen, this is something really important that you're touching on, because when you have a great team, I think, when, especially when you're doing difficult and complex work, I think it just really helps. Everyone works towards the same goal, yes, and everyone wins.
Speaker 2:And when you lose everyone feels that pain.
Speaker 1:Everyone feels as though, oh my goodness you know, Tell us, do you have any sort of tips for younger people in medicine, people in dentistry? How do you choose the right team?
Speaker 2:To be honest, from my experience, what I would say is we were actually talking about it the other day with the guys who I say the guys. Majority of our team is males, but I was saying that I think South Africa is one of the few countries that expects you to make long-term decisions before your brain is even fully developed, like from high school. You're still a child. Now. You have to pick the subject that you're going to do. I want to do, you're not sure actually what you want to be. Now, suddenly you're selecting subjects that confine or restrict what you can do, and then you're going to university. You're 17, you don't know what to do. You're not sure. Are you going to the right path? What I would advise is take time. If you're not sure what to do, take time. If you're able to take a gap year and it's something that's feasible for you, take that time. If you have to go in and study, keep your options broad. Most likely you'd like certain things in a similar field field, but broaden your options so that you're not confined doing one thing that you later on realize maybe you don't like. And if you do, venture out into medicine before you make that decision as to what you want to specialize in. Take time, go and be a medical officer in different departments and see how you like it, because what you're exposed to as a medical student is it's actually not even reality, to be honest. So I don't think I would have done pediatric surgery straight after ComServe because I would have been so greatly overwhelmed. And I think the timing was perfect because I was a little bit more experienced and I'd been a medical officer in surgery for a bit. I'd been a registrar for three years, so I'd had exposure and time to mature and to see what I like and be sure that this is what I was.
Speaker 2:It's a lot, it takes a lot. I often tell my daughter that she always likes she's a daddy's girl and I said you're obviously a daddy's girl because I was never around for the first four years of her life was I was living in Marysburg, training in Durban. I was never home. I was home very late every day. So it's a huge sacrifice that you have to make and you have to be sure.
Speaker 2:So take time and even if you're doing five different departments, you move every three months and just to get experience and make sure this is what you want to do and that's what I would advise and then also to ask for help. If you're not sure, ask the people that have been in the field for a long time. Get advice. Most times they'll be able to guide you into, I mean, what you should be doing and give you an idea what the specialty is like.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, that's the main thing that actually helped me is taking time and actually basically holding on to somebody and be like help me, what do you think I should do with this? What do you think I should do with this? What do you think I should do with that? And most times you'll be able to make the correct decision for you by doing that and push yourself. There's nothing that you cannot do. My mom used to always say that and say there's absolutely nothing that you can't do, and oftentimes, when I wanted to give up, I would remind myself that there's nothing that I can't do.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's powerful. It's powerful stuff, you know, I think you know we do have to do a lot of sacrifice and sometimes, when you're done and you look back at your life, you don't actually know how you did it. Yeah, because you know, when you're talking about being away from like a little baby and you yourself now are, you know, now doing that vacation to other people's children and your own children, you're not getting to see. But you're sacrificing that in order to get the learning done, in order to get the experience on you know, and being away from home.
Speaker 1:How did you cope with all of that? What were the aspects of um? Making sure you had a little bit of balance, or did you not have any balance and you just pushed on until you you know, you you got to the point of saying I'm done and now it's really, I'm ready for life again.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'll be honest with you. I think, like in my rich times during my training, there was absolutely no balance and my husband was um in marriage because he was working at grace, so he was at home most times. So whenever my daughter was sick he would stay home with her. He was I always joke and say he was a single parent, because he literally was, because I would leave early to drive to Durban to go to work and most times I'd come back and my daughter would be asleep, so, and sometimes she would like try to like stay up, so, just so you can see me, to say good night, and I would like look forward to the weekends, because that's when, okay, if I'm not working that weekend, then I know, and you spend those that time now trying to catch up, to make up for the fact that you went there like she didn't see you, maybe for two nights in a row, and then the weekend you're trying to like catch up and then also you still have to work, so that I mean it's gonna be difficult. That's why I think it's important when you decide what to do, you need to do something that you really love, that you're passionate about, because these are great, great sacrifices you have to make and it would be really sad to be halfway through something and you realize, you know, this is actually not even worth it. So if it's, you know something also to just you know what.
Speaker 2:I spoke to my daughter when she became older. I would tell her, and she used to. At one time she asked me. She said mommy, why are you in forever school, like you know. I said no, you know I, you know, when it's exam time I have to focus. And then she understood, you know.
Speaker 2:But to have great support system, sometimes you I mean you find you're a single parent and you have to do this on your own. And then you need your family, you need your parents, you need your you know, extended family to help you. It's, it's literally. It takes a whole village and some to help you through the training and then, once you've finished, the work is there. It's difficult, but you can maneuver. You've got more time Because I mean, at least now I don't, I'm not at hospital through the nights, I don't do like you know, even when I'm on call, I'm at home so I can put my daughters to sleep. I can put my daughters to sleep, you know, and then after that I can work. So, yeah, so I think it's just patience and it's difficult.
Speaker 2:The balance is difficult, especially for us women like to, you know, when you're having kids, having to take time off work and, to be honest, there is pregnancy brain, because I've never been the same after Now to recover from that as well, to go back. So, yeah, it's very difficult and challenging but, um, I think it's great. We have a great support system our spouses, our families, even our colleagues. I don't know how many times I've had to leave work and say, oh my gosh, amela's got a piano lesson. Can you help me to do this, can you help me to do that? And they're so, so sweet and so kind and so understanding. Some days I would forget and they'll be like, oh, aren't you supposed to be doing this with your daughter? Aren't you supposed to be doing that? It's just having a great team around you. Also it helps, you know, to try and be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think that these tips that you've given us are tremendous, because balance is incredibly tough to actually establish.
Speaker 2:It's very hard, tough to actually establish.
Speaker 1:It's very hard. I ask almost every one of our guests how they do it, because I don't think that any one of us get it right 100% of the time. There's some days where you do better at it and then there are days where you do need the village, then the village has to come, yeah. And thank goodness that we have it. Thank goodness that we have it, you know, because otherwise the pressure does become a lot and you know we don't talk enough about the type of pressure that surgeons go under.
Speaker 1:You know you're carrying a lot on your shoulders each time you start and each time you finish. Now let's talk a little bit about that is. What are these unseen pressures and what if someone was looking at you or listening to you today and saying I am definitely doing pediatric surgery. What would you like to tell them that you did not know when you were in?
Speaker 2:I would actually say a lot of the you know the surgical specialties. It's very male dominated and it's not because it's only men can do it, it's because it requires so much of you, because you know, every time you it's, it's it's a very busy, very hands-on, very present sort of specialty. That, um, it almost feels like when you have to take time away for family or to grow your family, that you're sort of missing out, especially if it's earlier on in your training. Like you, you, you, you almost feel like you know you can't be away from work because you know you, it's you, I, I honestly would say, and there's somebody, even still now, always says I think it's time for another baby, I think it's time for another baby. I would almost say, honestly, if I knew, I would have probably had my kids first, I would have taken the time and had kids first and then specialized, because I always thought you know what I'm gonna specialize, then I'll have more kids.
Speaker 2:But when you finish, there's other things, there's other commitments you have to teach you. Then you're doing research, there's always something and and, honestly, if it feels right for you to start growing your family in your internship, do it, because you always think I'll do it later. There is no later. There's always another task for later, so do it then. And people always feel later there's always another task for later, so do it then. And people always feel like they'll be judged. Oh, you're an intern. If you feel like you're ready to have a family and grow a family, then do it. It's for when you are ready. There's no time frame, there is no putting it off till later because you think later is better. It's not. There's always something to be done, like you know, something comes up and then you know you realize, now actually I actually want to say five kids, now actually I can't because you know I've been putting it off and putting it off.
Speaker 2:So I wish I knew that, I wish I knew it was okay to do what you want in your own timing. There's no, you know there's no society expects you to do this. Do your internship, do this finish and then do this, do what feels right for you. And also you know it's there's been. I've experienced times where I don't know whether it's because of my size or whether I'm a female, where people will just assume like, oh, are you the, you the sister? Are you the? Are you the rep, are you the whatever? And I, most times I'll just like shrug it off. And and then now I say no, I'm the surgeon. Like you know, there's no size. There's no size. It doesn't come in extra large or whatever. You know, just be yourself. I wish I knew it was okay to be myself.
Speaker 1:No one's assuming that you can actually be a surgeon that looks good behind your mask.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you. It's like and now you know what I've learned? Now I wish I knew that it was okay to do things in my own timing, that it was okay to be yourself and tell people, yes, this is who I am, this is what I do, without feeling ashamed or you're feeling like you've been. You know, you know too bold or too loud or too anything. You just be yourself to the best of your ability. As long as you're a good, kind person, everybody else will sort of basically, opinions don't matter, you do what feels right for you and what is right for everyone around you. So, yeah, and also the other thing is take time for yourself. Take time, take that hour to sit outside in the sun and have a glass of wine and listen to a podcast and read a book. You know, take that one hour. Yes, and subscribe please.
Speaker 2:You know, at times I laugh because we we recently did a laparoscopic workshop or a little advanced laparoscopic course at Graze. We've had a laparoscopic course running there for a few years. And and then part of the lectures. Ms Gavenda says that she always says when you are struggling with something in theater, take a surgical pause. So it means stop, put everything down and just stop, and I think life should be like this when you feel like it's too much, take a pause in whatever it is that you're doing. Stop, stop, take that 30 minutes or an hour and just reboot and restart and I think that helps.
Speaker 1:Yeah, switch on and off, basically listen, burnout's been a big, huge thing yesterday. I was away this weekend and, um, I I'm a sucker for the harvard review, but anyway, um and I I saw that there was a whole burnout Harvard review. A real aspect of our lives is that you don't actually recognize you are burnt out.
Speaker 2:You don't.
Speaker 1:And tiny little causes. I love it. A surgical cause. You know, just sometimes you would have had the perfect plan, the perfect patient, you're not expecting any complications, and there they arrive. They arrive unexpected, they with the best team, with the best team, with the best equipment, with the best experience, and it's in front of you and you have to deal. But to take the pause, I think, gets you to the next point of solution. So such brilliant advice, I think that everyone that encounters it often feels guilty about it. So I'm being feels guilty about it, so I'm being light-hearted about it because I think that we must put guilt aside now as
Speaker 1:women. I think you have the right to have a level of a personality even though you're a surgeon, and I think you have to wear it, you have to bring it, you have to just be confident in what you've chosen and you don't have to explain it to anyone. So I definitely we're rolling up on our last bits of the podcast, but my last one is that I really my whole life I've really appreciated anyone that does education, and I can see you have a real passion for it and you're an honorary lecturer at KZN. You know how do you see the future of our South African surgeons and like what advice? What do they need to be prepared for?
Speaker 2:Like what advice? What do they need to be prepared for? I think you know things have changed recently, because you know how the health system is, political things and things that I don't want to really go into. And it's not only now about worrying about getting your training done and getting the exposure. It's now worrying about when I'm done training, what am I going to do?
Speaker 2:There's a lot of surgeons, surgeons, doctors that finish their training and then they have nowhere to go in terms of jobs, especially in states, and I think that it's just nice to know that there's other options available out there. So, just training with the mind and, before you finish your training, start looking at where you're going to go. Because you know, I think doctors are a little bit um hard to say this like very politely, not very street smart actually because we go through medical school, we study. Nobody actually prepares you for what happens when you finish studying, like the real life, the fact that you'll finish training and you won't have a job, or the fact that now you need to maneuver. Oh, we're like moving and doing this and doing that, and I think if I wish someone had told me that you know, second year in start looking where are you going to go after this? You're finishing in like two years. What do you want to do? Where do you want to go? Where do you want to work? Go, start visiting that area, looking around, getting to know the people where you wish to work, that sort of thing, just for the future.
Speaker 2:I think that's what we surgeons now need to start doing early preparing for the future early and not focusing just on academia and just on. And also, you know, expand your knowledge continuously, all the time and challenge yourself all the time. But plan for the future so that you're not stuck in a situation where you feel frustrated because you know you've worked so hard and you've achieved this amazing thing that you've given up so much for and then you find yourself that you're stuck. You know I'm stuck, I don't know where to go, I don't know where to work and there are always other options.
Speaker 2:You know, if you don't want to stay, maybe in states, or there is no option to stay in states, attach yourself to another surgeon, ask them. You know, can I come and locum for you? You know, can I come shadow you for a little bit? Get that work experience whilst you're looking. I think that's going to, unfortunately be a reality for a lot of trainees that are going to finish is that we're going to have issues in terms of getting jobs and things like that, and it's good to have a plan and to know that. You know things do change rapidly and don't be afraid to move out of the province, go to new places. There was always somewhere where you may learn something more and you may actually find that you like it. So be fluid and be willing to change with the times and as things change, you have to sometimes just adjust your plans and yeah, and go with it well.
Speaker 1:Thank you, because I I think that you've given us a lot of advice and I think you're doing you're doing yourself well and anyone that is able to to still shine and even though you're tired, you're still, you know, doing your best and bringing it every single day. We really appreciate you. We appreciate people like you that are just keeping our medical faculty going and keeping the inspiration high, and I really do celebrate women like you. Thank you for being on our show today and making the time. I know it's a big sacrifice and I do not take it lightly, so thank you for being on and thank you for having me.
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